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Post by themikefest on Jul 31, 2016 5:42:58 GMT -8
First of, I like to thank Pacifien, who did all the legwork to post all the information needed. Some of the links in the post on BSN are no longer available. So I will try to fill in whats missing. Here's the flowchart used to decide who can do what during the mission and who might die if the wrong squadmates are chosen Click on image below to enlarge  On Approach to the Collector Base1. Are you going to rescue your crew on time? From the moment the crew is kidnapped from the Normandy, you are on a timer that will affect how many of them will die depending on how many missions you complete from time of kidnapping to going through the Omega-4 Mass Relay. A mission is anything that will result in a "Mission Complete" screen at the end, so landing on hub worlds will have no affect on this timer. Doing missions on hub worlds could. Mining for minerals shouldn't. 0 missions before Omega-4 Relay = [Survived!] 1-3 missions before Omega-4 Relay = [Death] 50% Crew >3 missions before Omega-4 Relay = [Death] 100% Crew except Dr. Chakwas 2. Did you upgrade the armor for the Normandy? The armor upgrade can be obtained either from asking Jacob about it or it will show up on the research terminal after completing Jacob's loyalty mission. Yes = [Survived!] No = [Death] = Jack 3. Did you upgrade the shields for the Normandy? The shield upgrade can be obtained either from asking Tali about it or it will show up on the research terminal after completing Tali's loyalty mission. NOTE: Anyone on this list who is taken to fight the Oculus in the cargo hold cannot die from the shield failure, so move to the next person on the list. Yes = [Survived!] No = [Death] = in this order - Kasumi, Legion, Tali, Thane, Garrus, Zaeed, Grunt, Samara/Morinth 4. Did you upgrade the weapons system for the Normandy? The weapons upgrade can be obtained either from asking Garrus about it or it will show up on the research terminal after completing Garrus's loyalty mission. Yes = [Survived!] No = [Death] - in this order - Thane, Garrus, Zaeed, Grunt, Jack, Samara/Morinth |
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Post by themikefest on Jul 31, 2016 5:50:35 GMT -8
Infiltrating the Collector Base
1. Will the tech expert survive going through the vents?
Survival of the tech specialist requires picking the correct squadmate for both roles of tech specialist and fireteam leader. NOTE: This decision is made before the autosave as you step onto the Collector Base.
Only Legion, Tali and Kasumi can be the tech specialist and survive.
Only Miranda, Garrus and Jabob can be fireteam leader that will ensure the survival of the tech specialist
Both fireteam leader and tech specialist have to be loyal for the tech specialist to survive
2. Will everyone survive going through the seeker swarm?
Pick one of the following Biotic Specialists = [Survived!]
Samara/Morinth, Jack
If someone else maintains the barrier or if Samara/Morinth, Jack are not loyal, a squadmate will die in this order
Thane, Jack, Garrus, Legion Grunt, Samara, Jacob, Mordin, Tali, Kasumi, Zaeed, Morinth
3. Will the Second Fireteam Leader survive?
Note: If the Second Fireteam Leader is by herself/himself, they will automatically survive if another squadmate had died during the walk through the seeker swarms.
Pick one of the following Fireteam Leaders = [Survived!]
Jacob, Miranda, Garrus have to be loyal
Anyone else will die regardless if he/she is loyal
Note: Miranda will survive even if she isn't loyal
4. Will the escorted crew make it back to the Normandy?
Note: If you only have 4 squadmates surviving at the time you must pick the escort, you will be unable to pick an escort.
loyal = [Survived!]
not loyal = [Death] Escort
No Escort = [Death] Crew, including Dr. Chakwas
5. Will the squadmates hold the line?
Before meeting the Final Boss, Miranda will ask you to pick the final two squadmates to go with you while everyone remaining will mount a defense at the second door. Who you leave behind is just as important as who you take with you: a poor defense could lead to some squadmates dying. Note: The following is a general guideline assuming the majority of your crew is loyal. A guaranteed success requires a "Hold the Line" score of 2.0 which is described in detail in the post below
Pick two out of the three following Defenders to leave behind = [Survived!]
Grunt, Garrus, Zaeed
This is the order of what squadmates will die first if none are not loyal. Those who are not loyal will die before the ones who are loayl
Mordin, Tali, Kasumi, Jack Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Samara/Morinth, Legion, Thane, Zaeed, Grunt
6. Will the squadmates survive the encounter with the Final Boss?
loyal = [Survived!]
not loyal = [Death] Non-loyal squadmates
7. Will Shepard survive the mission?
2 or more squadmates alive = [Survived!]
1 or no squadmates alive = [Death] Shepard
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Post by themikefest on Jul 31, 2016 8:56:41 GMT -8
Hold the line "Hold the Line" is what fellow forum posters have come to call the final defense at the second door, where Shepard leaves all the remaining squadmates while off to confront the final boss. Like the previous specialist roles during the mission, there are certain squadmates who are better suited for the defense than others. However, being a strong defender is only one aspect of the overall determination of squadmate deaths in this section, so you will need to read this section carefully if you're having issues here. Note: If all you're interested in achieving is a perfect survival rate, leave the strongest defenders to Hold the Line. That's the easiest way to go about it and spares you having to calculate averages. [Hold the Line] Defense Ranks Note: Knowing the defense rank is only necessary for a more detailed calculation of the Hold the Line Score discussed later in this section. The Strongest Defenders - Base score of 3 (4 if loyal): Garrus, Zaeed, Grunt The Average Defenders - Base score of 1 (2 if loyal): Thane, Legion, Miranda, Samara, Jacob The Weakest Defenders - Base score of 0 (1 if loyal) Mordin, Tali, Jack, Kasumi [Hold the Line] Priority Death List First, non - loyal squadmates will die before loyal squadmates. Second, weak defenders die before stronger ones. This is the order in which each one will die Mordin, Tali, Kasumi, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Garrus,Samara/Morinth, Legion, Thane, Zaeed, Grunt [Hold the Line] Point Value Averages Every squadmate brings a value to the defense and they get a +1 bonus if they're loyal. To calculate the Hold the Line Average Score, we add the values for each squadmate who is being left to Hold the Line and then divide that total by the number of squadmates at the battle. Using this average, you can determine how many squadmates are going to die (if any) while they Hold the Line. How many squadmates are at the defense will alter what average is needed to meet different death rate requirements. Ensuring everyone's survival is all about meeting the proper defense score average. This average is 2.0. Point Value Ratings - Squad of 5 or more 2.0 or higher = [Survived!] Less than 2.0, Greater than or equal to 1.5 = [Death] 1 squadmate Less than 1.5, Greater than or equal to 0.5 = [Death] 2 squadmates Less than 0.5 = [Death] 3 squadmates Combinations of 4 2.0 or higher = [Survived!] Less than 2.0, Greater than 1.0 = [Death] 1 squadmate Equal to or less than 1.0, Greater than or equal to 0.5 = [Death] 2 squadmates Less than 0.5 = [Death] 3 squadmates Exactly 0.0 = [Death] All squadmates (Only in a "Shepard dies" scenario.) Combinations of 3 2.0 or higher = [Survived!] Less than 2.0, Greater than or equal to 1.0 = [Death] 1 squadmate Less than 1.0, Greater than 0.0 = [Death] 2 squadmates Exactly 0.0 = [Death] All squadmates Combinations of 2 2.0 or higher = [Survived!] Less than 2.0, Greater than 0.0 = [Death] 1 squadmate Exactly 0.0 = [Death] All squadmates Power of 1 2.0 or higher = [Survived!] Less than 2.0 = [Death] Note: At least one person always survives Holding the Line unless the average is 0 or they're the only defender with a value less than 2.0. If the one person who survived Holding the Line is the only surviving squadmate from the whole mission, the game will play it as if everyone had died. This is because you need at least 2 surviving squadmates for Shepard to live.
Note 2 The only squadmates that have survived holding the line by themselves was Garrus, Zaeed and Grunt. I have left Miranda, who was loyal, giving her a score of 2, holding the line by herself and she died. The same with Samara and Jacob when they were left alone to hold the line Here's a post from Dusty Everman, a former Bioware Employee, with some helpful advice. Mordin's death is not a glitch or bug. I believe that when people are surprised with Mordin's death, it's during the "Hold the Line" time where you leave crew behind as you and two squad mates move onward. Tech had their moment in the sun with the tunnel infiltration. A biotic is key for the protective bubble. The Hold the Line sequence is time for your soldier types to do their best.
Basically you want your best DEFENDERS to hold the line. Don't think about offensive solo strikers. Think about the guys that can dig down and hold a position with moxie. You want them to hold the line.
Under the hood, each character has a "hole the line" score, which gets a bonus if the character is loyal. Characters like Mordin, Jack and Tali are squishy and not exoeruenced with bunkering down and holding out for an extended period of time. Characters like Grunt and Zaeed are tanks who thrive on this type of work. The score is tallied for all the team members that are holding the line, and the number of survivors are calculated. If people are to die, the non-loyals squishies go first through the list to the loyal tanks. Alas, I think Mordin is at the head of the death list. Some characters can't survive without help even if they are loyal. Others can survive even if not loyal.
Here are some examples for the group holding the line:
Loyal Mordin by himself: He can't hold the line by himself. He dies.
Non-loyal Grunt by himself: Grunt lives. He hunkers down and gets the job done, and doesn't have to worry about helping any one else.
Loyal Mordin and non-Loyal Grunt: Grunt dies, but Mordin lives. Grunt is able to hold the line but goofs up helping Mordin... he was just too aggressive without his right of passage.
Loyal Mordin and Loyal Grunt: They both live.
Note it is possible to get non-loyal henchmen to survive through the end game with the proper group holding the line.
So what is a good strategy? Send back a loyal squishy with the crew, like Mordin or Tali. Leave your defensive bad asses to hold the line (hmmm, Garrus defended a base all by himself to an extended period of time....) and take your loyal offensive favorites with you to the end.
As for saving Kelly and the crew, you just need to make sure you go through the Omega-4 relay right after the crew is taken, and make sure you send a loyal squad mate back as an escort. |
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Post by themikefest on Jul 31, 2016 15:52:27 GMT -8
here's a few scenarios. Based on having all squadmates recruited
ALL aliens survive
complete Garrus, Samara. Tali, Legion, Grunt, Mordin, Thane loyalty missions
DO NOT complete Miranda, Jacob, Zaeed, Jack and Kasumi's loyalty missions
DO NOT get the armor and shield upgrade for the Normandy. Only get the Thannix cannon upgrade. Get that from Garrus
no armor upgrade - Jack dies
no shield upgrade - Kasumi dies. For that to happen, DO NOT take to fight the oculus
send Jacob through the vent - death
send no escort - crew dies if you want the crew to survive, I would send Mordin as the escort
Zaeed 2nd fireteam leader - death
leave Garrus, Grunt, Samara, Thane, Legion to hold the line all will survive
take Tali and Miranda to fight the reaper - MIranda dies
ALL humans survive
complete MIranda, Jacob, Zaeed, Kasumi, and Jack's loyalty missions
DO NOT complete Garrus, Grunt, Samara, Thane, Tali, Mordin and Legion's loyalty mission
DO NOT get the shield and cannon upgrade. Only get the armor upgrade from Jacob
no shield upgrade - Legion dies MAKE SURE to take Kasumi to fight the oculus
no cannon upgrade- Thane dies
send Garrus in the vent - death
send Grunt back with the crew - death
Samara as 2nd fireteam leader - death
Zaeed, Miranda, Jacob, Kasumi, Jack hold the line - all survive
Tali and Mordin fight reaper - death
This is a guide if only 8 is recruited since that's all that is needed to get through the Omega - 4 relay and have all survive
recruit Garrus, Jack, Jacob, Kasumi, Tali, Zaeed, Miranda and Mordin
complete Miranda, Zaeed, Kasumi, Jack, and Mordin's loyalty mission. Why? Jack for the barrier so no one is taken by the seeker swarm. Kasumi for the vent and Miranda as fireteam leader. Zaeed to provide that extra point he gets that will be needed to help the other squadmates survive holding the line. Mordin because he's the weakest and will escort the crew back to the Normandy.
get all upgrades for the Normandy
Miranda as fireteam leader both times
Kasumi in the vent
Mordin as escort
Jack maintains barrier
Jack and Kasumi fight the reaper - survive
Miranda, Garrus, Jacob, Zaeed, Tali, hold the line - survive
The above is just one of many ways that can have the same result.
If you have a question or want a certain outcome, post your question and either myself or someone else can answer it.
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Post by natureguy85 on Jul 31, 2016 19:10:23 GMT -8
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 1:55:23 GMT -8
I have a question... Is there anything that takes into account whether or not the player has actually assigned as many of the squad points to specific talents for each individual squad member holding the line or has a number of unused squad points unassigned (because, let's say, they haven't used that squad mate recently to even just catch the up with new points they've acquired)?
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Post by natureguy85 on Aug 1, 2016 7:24:07 GMT -8
I have a question... Is there anything that takes into account whether or not the player has actually assigned as many of the squad points to specific talents for each individual squad member holding the line or has a number of unused squad points unassigned (because, let's say, they haven't used that squad mate recently to even just catch the up with new points they've acquired)? No, they each have an assigned value based on how good of a front line fighter the game thinks they are. This is based on the character, not the build. So Grunt, Zaeed, and Garrus are automatically the best. Everyone gets an extra point for being loyal though. I just noticed that the chart with the pictures describes it but doesn't show the values and the other one that has the values is tiny now. I swear it wasn't when I looked it up! Well that's the only one I could find, but I did find a picture of just the part we are discussing now.Garrus, Grunt, and Zaeed are worth 3 points. Legion, Miranda, Jacob, Samara, and Thane are worth 1. Tali, Mordin, Jack, and Kasumi are worth zero. Everyone gets one more point for loyalty. Someone can correct me if I have the values wrong.  |
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Post by themikefest on Aug 1, 2016 7:41:14 GMT -8
I have a question... Is there anything that takes into account whether or not the player has actually assigned as many of the squad points to specific talents for each individual squad member holding the line or has a number of unused squad points unassigned (because, let's say, they haven't used that squad mate recently to even just catch the up with new points they've acquired)? If Garrus, Miranda, Jack and Mordin are loyal and the only ones left holding the line, Garrus, having 4 points since he's loyal, will give up his extra 2 points, by giving 1 to Mordin and 1 to Jack who now will have 2, leaving Garrus with 2. Miranda being loyal, has 2. Since the average needed for all to survive holding the line is 2, all 4 would survive. If Garrus isn't loyal, he will only have 3. That one point will go to Jack leaving Mordin to die. I'm basing that on the order in which squadmates die who are not loyal |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 7:44:35 GMT -8
I have a question... Is there anything that takes into account whether or not the player has actually assigned as many of the squad points to specific talents for each individual squad member holding the line or has a number of unused squad points unassigned (because, let's say, they haven't used that squad mate recently to even just catch the up with new points they've acquired)? No, they each have an assigned value based on how good of a front line fighter the game thinks they are. This is based on the character, not the build. So Grunt, Zaeed, and Garrus are automatically the best. Everyone gets an extra point for being loyal though. I just noticed that the chart with the pictures describes it but doesn't show the values and the other one that has the values is tiny now. I swear it wasn't when I looked it up! Well that's the only one I could find, but I did find a picture of just the part we are discussing now.Garrus, Grunt, and Zaeed are worth 3 points. Legion, Miranda, Jacob, Samara, and Thane are worth 1. Tali, Mordin, Jack, and Kasumi are worth zero. Everyone gets one more point for loyalty. Someone can correct me if I have the values wrong. Thanks natureguy85. I've always wondered about that... Guess I can stop worrying about stopping in at Omega just before taking the relay to make sure I have all my available squad points assigned.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 8:09:57 GMT -8
Awesome in-depth guide. Wouldn't it be better suited in the "Combat, Strategy and Gameplay" section?
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Post by themikefest on Aug 1, 2016 8:22:57 GMT -8
Awesome in-depth guide. Wouldn't it be better suited in the "Combat, Strategy and Gameplay" section? That section wasn't available until after I created the thread If one of the mods can move it to that section I would be grateful |
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Cassandra Saturn
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Post by Cassandra Saturn on Aug 1, 2016 12:55:55 GMT -8
the thread has been moved as it should be |
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Post by themikefest on Aug 2, 2016 8:02:24 GMT -8
Can this thread be pinned or stickied? It's a popular thread for people looking for answers and information about the suicide mission.
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opuspace
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Post by opuspace on Aug 2, 2016 8:23:44 GMT -8
Pacifien is still around? Wow, that's awesome. Brings back memories.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2016 8:48:49 GMT -8
Can this thread be pinned or stickied? It's a popular thread for people looking for answers and information about the suicide mission.
Done, used extra gum to keep it up. |
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