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Post by guanxi on Jul 30, 2016 6:43:19 GMT -8
Pre-War Exodus: So did the Council Races' Leadership Screw Over us All?
Supposing that the Ark likely leaves before ME2* I guess Ashley was right about the Council Races' Leadership after-all. Lifeboats for the elites and essential personnel - lies, misinformation and almost certain death for the rest of us while they sail off into the sunset? After you saved their lives and were proved right about the reapers; the council (as their representatives) lying through their goddamn back-teeth all this time about the hologram on ilos, their secret plans and god only knows what else in the smuggest way possible all the while they had the balls to label you a traitor? Forgot to mention this little detail of a certain cross species project while you were gone did they?
It wasn't rebuilding the citadel that was occupying the council races in the aftermath of the Battle of the Citadel it was building this f--king thing! Instead of using the remains of Sovereign and the time we had left to give us all a shot at survival - our leadership instead focused their efforts on building lifeboats for essential personnel while feeding the rest of us a lofty 'next step' propaganda cover story to hide the intended purpose of the ark, meanwhile covering up the reaper invasion to stop the masses rumbling their plans for secret lifeboats. Adding minor races to a thinly veiled cross-species peace effort during this critical time gives this 'expedition' more credibility.
If the hierarchy made any serious attempt at adequate preparations for the reaper war or even publicly acknowledged them the jig would have been up. If the conspiracy ever got out afterwards the remaining leadership, council and their cohorts heads would surely adone the tops of medieval pikes not soon after arrival.
I think the elites were long gone by that time and they took our most advanced technology and essential personnel with them which majorly contributed to our lack of preparation - they left us in a right old state. The council were just lackies left holding the bag and what was left in the higher echelons of command was effectively a skeleton crew. Nobody in power believed Shepard that the reapers could be defeated so war preparations were shelved early on in favor of a more practical solution. There's something very fishy about the in-action and reaper cover-up which has never been explained... this would be an almost perfect explanation.
*Notes: Explains the images of the fleets over earth during peacetime, what happened during shepard's 2 year death hiatus, lack of reference to an ark 'expedition' project from ME2 onwards, the fate of the remains of sovereign, the reaper/geth cover up and why (pre-genophage cure) Krogan for example were permitted to participate in the program. In addition leaving prior to the reaper invasion cuts down the risk of discovery, sabotage/indoctrination and diverting vital resources away from the Crucible during wartime.
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SKAR
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Post by SKAR on Jul 30, 2016 8:52:37 GMT -8
[/quote] It sounds pretty good to me. I was thinking something similar.
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sartoz
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Post by sartoz on Jul 30, 2016 9:04:32 GMT -8
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Hm...
I hold a different viewpoint. It's based on Shep giving that goodbye speech. It's the linchpin to my position.
Point 1 Shep could not have given that speech during ME2. To the Alliance, he was dead. Shep had no access to any secret ARK projects from the Alliance. Thus, could not be aware of that crucial backup to save humanity.
Point 2 Shep was re-instated in ME3. Once Earth Defense forces became aware of comm loss between them and the outer bases of the solar system, Shep was told to give them the goodbye speech as a booster shot to the colonists (those not already in stasis.. ie: the crews).
Point 3 No way did the Alliance or any Council member race started the ARKCON Project in ME1. First it's strictly a human initiative (from the names that are assigned). Second, it's only at the end of ME1 that the Council believed.
So when did the ARKs depart? .. at the start of ME3... see Point 2
As to the concept and start of the ARKCON project, I say it all happened in ME2. It's perfect. Shep is out of the picture and so the writers can say anything. For example; The Alliance captures a secret Cerberus Lab working on FTL tech. No need to bring in the Council races other than the Alliance holding them to ransom by saying "hey we have this new FTL drive, here is what we are thinking... interested?"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2016 9:05:45 GMT -8
Honestly, I doubt BioWare has put much thought into it. Mac seems to labor under the delusion that LITERALLY everything is possible just because it's the future, even if it requires money, resources and technology that has been established to not exist in the quantities the plot requires.
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sartoz
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Post by sartoz on Jul 30, 2016 9:12:01 GMT -8
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During wars, governments go into debt all the time. The Republicans under Bush spent 200+ billions monthly, easy..
From a Mass Effect plot point of view, that debt is justified. If I was in charge, I'd give the go ahead because if we lose, who cares about the debt. Right? And, if we win, I'll worry about it later".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2016 9:53:09 GMT -8
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During wars, governments go into debt all the time. The Republicans under Bush spent 200+ billions monthly, easy..
From a Mass Effect plot point of view, that debt is justified. If I was in charge, I'd give the go ahead because if we lose, who cares about the debt. Right? And, if we win, I'll worry about it later". That was the entire impetus behind the races depleting the galactic economy in order to build the Crucible - if built, it would bankrupt the galaxy, but if they didn't build it, the Reapers would be guaranteed to win. A collapsed economy can be rebuilt, but a dead civilization stays dead forever. The problem with the Ark Project is that there's not enough time between the death of Sovereign and the Reaper invasion to design and build the Arks, especially not with the Crucible Project just around the corner. The technology to cross intergalactic distances didn't exist in 2183-2186 because there was no demand for it, mainly because the galaxy is mind-bogglingly big and scarcely even 1% fully explored but also because the Relay Network trivializes interstellar travel. The 50 hour discharge limit is the standard because the Mass Relays are so commonplace that people won't have to spend more than a couple of days in transit to reach their destination, even if it's on the other side of the galaxy. So designing a heatsink that can last 600 years before needing to be discharged isn't just pointless, but straight up financially irresponsible seeing how an FTL spacecraft can make it from one ass end of the galaxy to the other in 22 years. The Crucible was (barely) justified in that the design was already complete by the time the blueprints were found on Mars. They didn't need scientists and engineers to spend years and billions of credits to figure out how to transmit an anti-Reaper death wave, a Reaper control signal or a space magic rainbow across the entire galaxy - that money and time was invested by the countless thousands of galactic civilizations who came before and failed to finalize their design before they were mowed down like a summer lawn. This is of course beside the point that breakthroughs are random and can't be forced with huge sums of cash - if this was the case, we'd have cured cancer a long time ago.
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Post by Mcfly616 on Jul 30, 2016 10:08:05 GMT -8
I think it was more of a Plan B....rather than a big "F" you to the rest of the Milky Way. Just ensuring life continues. Somewhere.
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sartoz
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Post by sartoz on Jul 30, 2016 11:59:23 GMT -8
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During wars, governments go into debt all the time. The Republicans under Bush spent 200+ billions monthly, easy..
From a Mass Effect plot point of view, that debt is justified. If I was in charge, I'd give the go ahead because if we lose, who cares about the debt. Right? And, if we win, I'll worry about it later". That was the entire impetus behind the races depleting the galactic economy in order to build the Crucible - if built, it would bankrupt the galaxy, but if they didn't build it, the Reapers would be guaranteed to win. A collapsed economy can be rebuilt, but a dead civilization stays dead forever. The problem with the Ark Project is that there's not enough time between the death of Sovereign and the Reaper invasion to design and build the Arks, especially not with the Crucible Project just around the corner. The technology to cross intergalactic distances didn't exist in 2183-2186 because there was no demand for it, mainly because the galaxy is mind-bogglingly big and scarcely even 1% fully explored but also because the Relay Network trivializes interstellar travel. The 50 hour discharge limit is the standard because the Mass Relays are so commonplace that people won't have to spend more than a couple of days in transit to reach their destination, even if it's on the other side of the galaxy. So designing a heatsink that can last 600 years before needing to be discharged isn't just pointless, but straight up financially irresponsible seeing how an FTL spacecraft can make it from one ass end of the galaxy to the other in 22 years. The Crucible was (barely) justified in that the design was already complete by the time the blueprints were found on Mars. They didn't need scientists and engineers to spend years and billions of credits to figure out how to transmit an anti-Reaper death wave, a Reaper control signal or a space magic rainbow across the entire galaxy - that money and time was invested by the countless thousands of galactic civilizations who came before and failed to finalize their design before they were mowed down like a summer lawn. This is of course beside the point that breakthroughs are random and can't be forced with huge sums of cash - if this was the case, we'd have cured cancer a long time ago. <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>
I think we agree that cash is not an issue. The sticky point is the timeline and the tech.
First the tech. Since we arrived in the Helius cluster after a 600 year period, obviously the tech was there. Two key techs were necessary. 1. The stasis pods 2. The FTL drive.
My speculation is that they got a breakthrough. How? I don't know. But, given the state of the FTL tech, as you pointed out... it's the only logical explanation. Whether you accept that or not, that's up to you. Me? As a plot device? Why not? Plus Javik woke up from a stasis pod himself. The Alliance had something to work with, in that 2nd key area.
The Timeline and Construction. This one is easy. Ship construction did not take as long as some people speculated. Why? For one, it's not a multi generation ship. The ARKs are just "hollow cylinders", slap on the engine and basic structure to hold the pods. Colonists were placed in the pods on Earth or in a staging area and then lifted and placed in the ARK. Ever looked at WW2 purpose build troop ships? Do you honestly think they had all the amenities of a cruise ship? So, really, construction went fast (... it's relative, I agree). If that prequel book ever comes out, I bet most of the time was spent on recruitment and crew training. In any case, I think of ME:A as a game that occurs in an alternate reality. Close to the Shep universe but with some differences. Those differences can explain everything and I'm sure the writers will latch on to that.
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Post by helios969 on Jul 30, 2016 12:48:17 GMT -8
The problem I have with the whole Andromeda venture is the implausibility of creating these arks in such a short time period. I'm inclined to think leaving would be after the "continuity of civilization" blurb by the Asari Consular. This was something I threw out awhile back as a possible way it could be handled. I guess it's part fanfic and part me trying to come up with a plausible explanation.
The Asari always knew about the Reaper threat. From centuries of study of the Prothean artifact on Thessia, the Asari had long known about the existence of Reapers and the 50,000 year cycle of extinction they wrought on the galaxy. The Protheans ensured they knew, creating a repository of knowledge that included an alternative path to survive the reaper onslaught; one they were unable to bring to fruition.
This knowledge was a tightly guarded secret known only to a select few powerful and esteemed Asari associated with but operating outside the government; as a means to control information, guide leadership, and shape the Asari people. If either became compromised by Reaper indoctrination, they would not undermine the project.
The timing of the Normandy development – “the Council helping to fund the project” – was no coincidence…nor was Humanities involvement. This was but one layer of subterfuge put in place for when the Reapers arrived. Humanity was to be the focal point while the real plan was developed.
On a distant world in an isolated system deep in the Terminus System the infrastructure had long ago been laid. Initiated by the Prothean’s and brought to fruition by the Asari, it was rich in the requisite natural resources and would serve as the staging ground that would save the Asari people…and others. The Terminus’s perilous reputation served as a deterrent to races seeking expansion opportunities; and the pirates and slavers added a layer of security as well as provided a steady stream of workers to support the project. Aria T’Loak’s prominence in the Terminus was also no coincidence.
Thus, when Sovereign showed up on Eden Prime, those few select Asari knew it was time to put their plan into full motion. Selection of those races who would be major partners on the project began. The other Council races would, of course, participate. Despite their volatile natures, the Krogan would be “invited” because of what they offered the Asari genetically…but in more manageable numbers. Human participation was hotly debated. Some Asari argued they were less predictable than the Krogan and therefore more dangerous. Those in favor argued humanity offered the Asari the greatest genetic potential. Both agreed that if the Humans ever discovered how they had been manipulated, they would be dangerous to the stability of the endeavor and its long term success.
In the end it didn’t matter. Humanity earned their membership into the Council at the Battle for the Citadel; ending all debate on the topic. And by delaying the full onslaught of the Reapers, Humanity bought the project precious time.
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Post by Heimdall on Jul 30, 2016 15:04:01 GMT -8
I think Sovereign's remains provided the necessary FTL advancement, Anderson did say that most of it was unaccounted for. Considering the Council also had access to Ilos ( And the stasis pods), so most of the tech is theoretically available to them by the end of ME1. It only took the Turians two years to produce the Thanix cannon from Sovereign's remains, so that speed of reverse engineering isn't outside the realm of possibility.
Then it's just a matter of building the ships, which shouldn't be a problem.
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Post by yolobastien on Jul 30, 2016 15:32:38 GMT -8
I think there is a strong possibility for the pre-reaper war exodus.
I was thinking that the technology for the stasis pods was obtained from Ilos. Also Vigil probably gave all the information necessary concerning the mini relay. Maybe that is how they set on their journey to Andromeda. The relay maybe accelerates them to unreal speeds, making the voyage shorter by maybe a few hundred years. Or maybe the ark ships have relays incorporated in them. All they need to do is discharge along the way (automatically done by a VI or whatnot) a few times and re-accelerate.
Concerning Shepard's goodbye, I don't think they will make that canon. Otherwise this theory doesn't work.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2016 15:52:17 GMT -8
That was the entire impetus behind the races depleting the galactic economy in order to build the Crucible - if built, it would bankrupt the galaxy, but if they didn't build it, the Reapers would be guaranteed to win. A collapsed economy can be rebuilt, but a dead civilization stays dead forever. The problem with the Ark Project is that there's not enough time between the death of Sovereign and the Reaper invasion to design and build the Arks, especially not with the Crucible Project just around the corner. The technology to cross intergalactic distances didn't exist in 2183-2186 because there was no demand for it, mainly because the galaxy is mind-bogglingly big and scarcely even 1% fully explored but also because the Relay Network trivializes interstellar travel. The 50 hour discharge limit is the standard because the Mass Relays are so commonplace that people won't have to spend more than a couple of days in transit to reach their destination, even if it's on the other side of the galaxy. So designing a heatsink that can last 600 years before needing to be discharged isn't just pointless, but straight up financially irresponsible seeing how an FTL spacecraft can make it from one ass end of the galaxy to the other in 22 years. The Crucible was (barely) justified in that the design was already complete by the time the blueprints were found on Mars. They didn't need scientists and engineers to spend years and billions of credits to figure out how to transmit an anti-Reaper death wave, a Reaper control signal or a space magic rainbow across the entire galaxy - that money and time was invested by the countless thousands of galactic civilizations who came before and failed to finalize their design before they were mowed down like a summer lawn. This is of course beside the point that breakthroughs are random and can't be forced with huge sums of cash - if this was the case, we'd have cured cancer a long time ago. <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>
I think we agree that cash is not an issue. The sticky point is the timeline and the tech.
First the tech. Since we arrived in the Helius cluster after a 600 year period, obviously the tech was there. Jesus Christ, no, the tech wasn't "obviously" there. The codex outright calls the galaxy "impassable" without the Mass Relays: If the technology was "obviously" there, the codex wouldn't state this. There's also this tidbit in the codex's description of the discharge technology: So colossal vessels like the Arks would burn through heat sinks considerably faster than vessels the size of dreadnoughts and smaller. That means the 600 year heat sink would be multiplied by several factors for each successively smaller vessel class. If the Arks are comparable in size to the Crucible (they certainly seem to be), which is about 80 times larger than a Normandy-sized frigate, a Normandy-sized frigate installed with the 600 year Ark heatsink would be able to travel for 48,000 years before having to discharge. Yes, it could travel for almost an entire Reaper cycle before having to discharge. What that would mean is that in two years, Alliance engineers managed to increase the efficiency of heat sinks by a factor of 8.4 million. Yeah, that "obviously" did not happen, not even in Mac Walters "Humanity is God" universe.
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Post by golddragon on Jul 30, 2016 16:40:10 GMT -8
For those that are debating the Time, I ask this: How long did it take to build the Crucible in ME3? Going by pure gameplay only, you'd think the whole thing was done in a matter of weeks....
I say six months. With round-the-clock building.
SO a two-year build for 3 ARKs isn't all THAT impossible....
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Post by Heimdall on Jul 30, 2016 16:52:34 GMT -8
So colossal vessels like the Arks would burn through heat sinks considerably faster than vessels the size of dreadnoughts and smaller. That means the 600 year heat sink would be multiplied by several factors for each successively smaller vessel class. If the Arks are comparable in size to the Crucible (they certainly seem to be), which is about 80 times larger than a Normandy-sized frigate, a Normandy-sized frigate installed with the 600 year Ark heatsink would be able to travel for 48,000 years before having to discharge. Yes, it could travel for almost an entire Reaper cycle before having to discharge. What that would mean is that in two years, Alliance engineers managed to increase the efficiency of heat sinks by a factor of 8.4 million. Yeah, that "obviously" did not happen, not even in Mac Walters "Humanity is God" universe. I really don't think the Arks would have to be anywhere near that large. The Crucible was the size of the Citadel, 45 kilometers in length, but there's no reason the Arks would have to be much larger than a dreadnought, certainly no larger than a Reaper. They don't need so much space to carry the stasis pods and even when they wake people up, they will be supporting a population of thousands, maybe ten thousand, not the millions you could house aboard the Citadel. That doesn't address your point, but this assumption that the Arks would have to be so massive really has no basis. To address your point, the drive core solution most likely resides in the missing remains of Sovereign.
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Hanako Ikezawa
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 30, 2016 17:08:17 GMT -8
I really don't think the Arks would have to be anywhere near that large. The Crucible was the size of the Citadel, 45 kilometers in length, but there's no reason the Arks would have to be much larger than a dreadnought, certainly no larger than a Reaper. They don't need so much space to carry the stasis pods and even when they wake people up, they will be supporting a population of thousands, maybe ten thousand, not the millions you could house aboard the Citadel. That doesn't address your point, but this assumption that the Arks would have to be so massive really has no basis. To address your point, the drive core solution most likely resides in the missing remains of Sovereign. Yeah, I don't expect them to be any larger than say the Collector Cruisers, though that may be my bias for the Black Ark Theory speaking. But even if Black Ark Theory is wrong, a ship that size is established to be able to hold a lot of people, equipment, and ships while being mostly hollow, so there is plenty of room to create living space as well.
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