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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 7:11:23 GMT -8
(looks like this is the first thread in this forum)
Most of my choices had been predetermined before the playthrough started, but this one I wasn't sure on until a little before the derelict reaper mission. It was a hard call. Without meta-gaming, the decision made sense. There would likely be a greater payoff from studying the geth than questioning it; especially without the heretic insight. That's not why I did it though.
So why did I sell it? For similar reasons to why I killed Wrex on Virmire. I did not want my Shepard to develop sympathy/become an apologist for the geth, which to an extent, inevitably occurs if you recruit him.
My gut instinct says, in the long term, synthetics like the geth are a big threat to organics as Javik/the catalyst state. But emotional appeal keeps me from turning on Legion if recruited; the same way I've never been able to sabotage the genophage cure with Wrex alive. I believe the genophage is a necessary evil, yet I cannot betray him. And if I go against Wrex by destroying Maelon's data and no longer being his friend, he isn't angry. He is wounded, which is even worse. It's a situation I want to avoid.
And if you continue wanting the geth destroyed despite recruiting Legion and knowledge of the heretics, you come across as very cold, almost a traitor, which ruins the enjoyment.
So I played ME3 with an intentionally ignorant Shepard regarding the geth/heretic situation, hating those machines for their past bloodshed like the attack on the Citadel, and unapologetic for them; including the geth killing any organic who ever entered the Perseus Veil (peaceful intentions or otherwise).
The thing is, I like Legion. It's a cool character with amusing conversations, an unconventional personality, and a fun loyalty mission. Plus, it looks bad-ass holding that Widow sniper rifle that only potentially Shepard can otherwise use.
Has anyone done something like this for role-playing reasons?
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Post by themikefest on Aug 1, 2016 7:54:46 GMT -8
A lot of my playthroughs I already know what I will do before starting. Even know what my ems will be before heading to Earth.
The majority of my ME2 playthroughs, I sell the geth to Cerberus. I don't agree that its a renegade thing. I also don't agree that its required to be loyal and in ME3 to get peace. That doesn't matter anyways since I don't allow the code to be uploaded
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Syn
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Post by Syn on Aug 1, 2016 9:17:12 GMT -8
Actually, no. You totally are a monster.
End of story.
I will never forgive you.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 10:07:11 GMT -8
A lot of my playthroughs I already know what I will do before starting. Even know what my ems will be before heading to Earth. The majority of my ME2 playthroughs, I sell the geth to Cerberus. I don't agree that its a renegade thing. I also don't agree that its required to be loyal and in ME3 to get peace. That doesn't matter anyways since I don't allow the code to be uploaded We talked about this before. I think Bioware considers it renegade because: 1) Anything pro-Cerberus is renegade 2) It's practical to study it. Keeping it on the ship, activating it, and then letting it move freely on the ship/join the squad after the exchange of only a few words is all very idealistic. But what do you mean, "to get peace?" Are you referring to selling Legion making it impossible? Honestly, I think peace should have been impossible regardless. Besides that option making what potentially would be a very tough moral/tactical decision far easier to decide, Tali and Legion potentially earning a mutual respect shouldn't mean that every quarian will suddenly live with the geth after being devoted to hating/wanting to kill them for centuries. Having Tali/Legion be determining factors oversimplifies it, and suggests that only those characters immediately related to Shepard's influence have relevance on such major decisions. I suppose the idea is that if Legion died, the geth have no insight into organic cooperation. Again, Shepard conveniently can change the entire geth outlook on organics by their sole actions, as if no organic could ever have pulled off cooperating with a geth before. What's additionally baffling about this is how I was under the impression that Legion (at times) relayed information to the geth neural network. Thus, its actions on the Normandy shouldn't have been unknown to the geth, and therefore the geth VI in ME3, if Legion died.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 1, 2016 10:24:53 GMT -8
No. I don't agree that Tali and Legion have to be required to get peace. Look at the genophage situation. There is no certain character required to cure/sabotage the genophage. Why can't it be like that for the geth/quarian? I agree. I wanted for my Shepard to laugh when there was even a hint that it was possible Especially Gerr'll. He's got an itchy trigger finger. He wouldn't hesitate to shoot them. But because of the power of the voice from Commander Shepard, he lowers his weapon and agrees to be buddies with them That might work for a paragon. I don't see that happening for a Shepard who is a renegade
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Post by The Redhead Commander on Aug 1, 2016 13:18:56 GMT -8
You monster!
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Post by natureguy85 on Aug 1, 2016 13:35:04 GMT -8
(looks like this is the first thread in this forum) Most of my choices had been predetermined before the playthrough started, but this one I wasn't sure on until a little before the derelict reaper mission. It was a hard call. Without meta-gaming, the decision made sense. There would likely be a greater payoff from studying the geth than questioning it; especially without the heretic insight. That's not why I did it though. So why did I sell it? For similar reasons to why I killed Wrex on Virmire. I did not want my Shepard to develop sympathy/become an apologist for the geth, which to an extent, inevitably occurs if you recruit him. My gut instinct says, in the long term, synthetics like the geth are a big threat to organics as Javik/the catalyst state. But emotional appeal keeps me from turning on Legion if recruited; the same way I've never been able to sabotage the genophage cure with Wrex alive. I believe the genophage is a necessary evil, yet I cannot betray him. And if I go against Wrex by destroying Maelon's data and no longer being his friend, he isn't angry. He is wounded, which is even worse. It's a situation I want to avoid. And if you continue wanting the geth destroyed despite recruiting Legion and knowledge of the heretics, you come across as very cold, almost a traitor, which ruins the enjoyment. So I played ME3 with an intentionally ignorant Shepard regarding the geth/heretic situation, hating those machines for their past bloodshed like the attack on the Citadel, and unapologetic for them; including the geth killing any organic who ever entered the Perseus Veil (peaceful intentions or otherwise). The thing is, I like Legion. It's a cool character with amusing conversations, an unconventional personality, and a fun loyalty mission. Plus, it looks bad-ass holding that Widow sniper rifle that only potentially Shepard can otherwise use. Has anyone done something like this for role-playing reasons? This sounds more like you used meta-gaming to avoid a tough roleplaying decision. You cut content from your playthrough to avoid a situation that sounds far more interesting because of its moral difficulty. That same meta-gaming would tell you that there is not going to be any benefit from selling Legion; you just get the money. And the problem with the choice is that by that part of the game, you likely have no need for more money. This means that there is little reason to not activate Legion, no matter how you Roleplay. The only reason is being afraid of what it might do. What they should have done is let you activate him, maybe even making that mandatory. Then you would have the choice to let him out of the field or not after talking to him.... I mean "it." Sorry, Tali. For example, when I first played Dragon Age Origins, I left Sten in the cage. This was actually because I didn't know you could let him out, though in retrospect and with more gaming knowledge under my belt, he has "teammate" written all over him (though it was possible he'd just give you a reward then or later). Still, one could just not trust him. Similarly, I don't take Zevran in some playthroughs because he is untrustworthy on account of having tried to kill me. Whether I kill him or not is another story. While the author intent is certainly for you to see the Geth and EDI as life equal to Organics, they wisely gave you the option to have Shepard believe otherwise. Personally, I thought of Legion as a person more than I thought of the Geth generally as life. It would have been cool to see Geth society, either via the device that allowed Shepard into the Consensus, or visiting an area with many friendly platforms that you could interact with. I also think Joker and EDI's romance would have been more powerful had EDI remained in the ship or maybe gone into a Geth platform or Loki (or even YMIR!) and not gotten a robot body with a pretty face and giant boobs for Joker to drool over.
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Post by natureguy85 on Aug 1, 2016 14:18:34 GMT -8
No. I don't agree that Tali and Legion have to be required to get peace. Look at the genophage situation. There is no certain character required to cure/sabotage the genophage. Why can't it be like that for the geth/quarian? I agree. I wanted for my Shepard to laugh when there was even a hint that it was possible Especially Gerr'll. He's got an itchy trigger finger. He wouldn't hesitate to shoot them. But because of the power of the voice from Commander Shepard, he lowers his weapon and agrees to be buddies with them That might work for a paragon. I don't see that happening for a Shepard who is a renegade Well the Geth and Genophage conflicts are framed very differently. While the Krogan are central to the Genophage conflict, having either Wrex or Wreave as a figurehead, the rest of it is focused very specifically on either Mordin or Padok Wiks and the Salarian Dalatrass specifically, rather than Salarians generally. The Krogan are just asking a favor for a favor. If they get the Genophage cure, they will help the Turians in a fight. There's nothing about healing the old wounds and bridging a gap between the races. They may go right on hating each other once the Reapers are gone. With Wreave in charge, there will probably be more war eventually. The Rannoch arc is different and ultimately contains a big problem, one Mikefest, Quarian Master Race, and I discussed on the old forum. While Tali and Legion are just representatives of their respective peoples, unlike the Genophage arc, the conflict is between Quarians and Geth generally, However, peace is only achieved at the point of a gun, with the Quarians stopping their attack, not because they've come to an understanding with the Geth, but because the Geth will destroy them otherwise. The little conversation between the Prime and Admiral Raan is important to establish that connection, but it's weird that the Quarians are so quickly comfortable enough to allow Geth into their suits. It would likely be an uneasy peace with people like Garrell still grumbling about it until a fair amount of time has passed for the Geth to "prove tjhemselves." Legion and Tali are required because, while Shepard is the mediator and mutual connection between the two, they are the connection to their own race. Legion having been with Shepard is the only reason for the Geth to trust Organics. Tali is less important, being only another Admiral to order the troops to stop firing and convincing Garrell to stand down. Raan is too weak and Xen has no interest in peace. Speaking of Xen, her Control idea should have remained on the table as a possible resolution to the arc.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 1, 2016 14:22:01 GMT -8
I do agree about Xen and her idea remaining in the game. Oh well. Maybe in the future they can remake ME3 and add all the cut content
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Post by natureguy85 on Aug 1, 2016 14:44:07 GMT -8
I do agree about Xen and her idea remaining in the game. Oh well. Maybe in the future they can remake ME3 and add all the cut content While I do like at least some aspects of that cut mission with Xen on the Citadel, I'm talking about having Xen's desire to Control the Geth again be a legitimate outcome of the Rannoch arc. Then all three ending choices would have been represented in this arc.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 14:53:30 GMT -8
In my first ever ME2 I didn't even know Legion existed. There was a geth on board and activating it seemed like a stupid idea..or at least I thought my Shep would think that. So I sent him to Cerberus, and was totally ignorant of his character and the concept of 'heretic geth' until I played the series again.
I haven't played ME3 with that Shep yet, but when I go back to her I'll have to remember that she has no concept of 'good' geth and 'bad' geth. Right up until Priority: Rannoch she'll believe them all to be bad. Should be really interesting.
It doesn't make you a monster, few choices in BioWare games do. You can justify almost anything given the right character and mindset.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 15:08:23 GMT -8
This sounds more like you used meta-gaming to avoid a tough roleplaying decision. You cut content from your playthrough to avoid a situation that sounds far more interesting because of its moral difficulty. That same meta-gaming would tell you that there is not going to be any benefit from selling Legion; you just get the money. And the problem with the choice is that by that part of the game, you likely have no need for more money. Oh, I meta-gamed heavily. I admitted in the OP that I avoided recruiting Legion partially because of the moral difficulty that comes later. And, as also mentioned in the OP, I did it because I did not want my Shepard to begin sympathizing with the geth. I wanted him to think like the majority of people in ME do, and it's hard to continue with that characterization if you have a geth as a squadmate. Without meta-gaming, it makes a lot of sense not to activate Legion. As Miranda warns, there would be no guarantee of deactivation that would keep it intact. There's really no reason to suspect this geth would reveal things like the geth heretic conflict or that it would join your crew. Shepard's automatic trustworthiness of a geth if you choose to keep it, despite all the suspected bias Shepard should have towards them over the course of ME1/ME2, comes across as silly. Sten and Zevran are the pinnacle of absurd recruitments (without meta-gaming) IMO; certainly more than Legion.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 15:14:41 GMT -8
It doesn't make you a monster, few choices in BioWare games do. You can justify almost anything given the right character and mindset. ...My Shepard also kept David Archer with his brother... in large part because of his complete ignorance about geth heretics. From all he knew, all geth were hostile to organics and worshipped reapers, and the only known alternative to something like Project Overlord was conventional warfare that would certainly cost more than one life. In Frank Castle Shepard's mind, David Archer had been "drafted" into the war.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 15:22:07 GMT -8
I do agree about Xen and her idea remaining in the game. Oh well. Maybe in the future they can remake ME3 and add all the cut content I never heard about that before. It actually sounds like an amazing renegade choice; to basically enslave all geth as fodder for the war. The way it is, I felt the leap from a cease-fire to peace was unconvincing and too convenient; especially requiring things like Tali being alive as prerequisites. Besides a few quarians like Qwib Qwib, there was nothing to indicate quarians even wanted peace. At best, some just didn't want to die trying to retake Rannoch. Very little indicated such a sudden peace could be possible.
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Post by natureguy85 on Aug 1, 2016 15:24:58 GMT -8
Oh, I meta-gamed heavily. I admitted in the OP that I avoided recruiting Legion partially because of the moral difficulty that comes later. And, as also mentioned in the OP, I did it because I did not want my Shepard to begin sympathizing with the geth. I wanted him to think like the majority of people in ME do, and it's hard to continue with that characterization if you have a geth as a squadmate. Without meta-gaming, it makes a lot of sense not to activate Legion. As Miranda warns, there would be no guarantee of deactivation that would keep it intact. There's really no reason to suspect this geth would reveal things like the geth heretic conflict or that it would join your crew. Shepard's automatic trustworthiness of a geth if you choose to keep it, despite all the suspected bias Shepard should have towards them over the course of ME1/ME2, comes across as silly. Sten and Zevran are the pinnacle of absurd recruitments (without meta-gaming) IMO; certainly more than Legion. Yeah, you described meta-gaming, but talked about role playing, which is why I discussed them separately. I know what you mean about Legion making it hard to not be sympathetic, but that is the difficulty we were discussing, and could lead to more interesting role play. I think it's perfectly reasonable to still see Legion and the Geth as just machines. The game and ME3 even let Shepard have those opinions, which is significant since, in the first game, you pretty much could only tell Tali that the Geth were life and the Quarians were wrong. As for activating Legion, as Jacob says, "Bullets can." There is a risk, but EDI seems to have them minimized. I think the potential pretty much outweighs the risks and you're most likely to be no worse off, if not better. Shepard's automatic trust of Legion once activated is indeed silly, but is a separate issue as to whether or not to activate it since you can't know at the time that this attitude will be forced on you. That's why I suggested an alternative way for it to play out. Now that makes you a monster. There was a mission where you'd be sent to arrest Xen on the Citadel because she was doing crazy experiments. What I didn't like about it is that you can't support her. She's still automatically viewed as crazy and you have to arrest or kill her.
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